These holds are different from many holds that you'll see advertised as mini jugs. I could easily see them listed as positive incuts or super big crimps instead. This is exactly what I wanted from these, thankfully. My wall is 20 degrees and I can use them to set both v3-v5 for myself and v0-v1 for my husband - their positivity without being super-buckets makes them super versatile. That being said, on a 30+ degree wall, they'd definitely be for v3/4+, although they'd actually make really good feet for easier climbs then. Basically, what I'm saying is that they're indispensable on any wall that is 20 degrees or steeper.